Across the Bridge and Through the City: Engineering, Advocacy, and Detroit’s Non-Motorized Network

[00:05] - Em Hall

Welcome to Critical Conversations in Transportation Planning, where we're bringing you a series of interviews with pioneers and industry leaders who are offering insights into the most challenging issues facing our field. This podcast is produced by the American Planning Association's Transportation Planning Division. TPD connects planners working across all transportation modes to share innovation, foster collaboration, and advocate for sustainable mobility solutions.

 

[00:33] - Divya Gandhi

I'm Divya Gandhi, a transportation planner and a member of the Transportation Planning Division Board.

 

[00:39] - Em Hall

And I'm Dr. Em Hall, an urban planning consultant and member of the TPD Board of Directors.

 

[00:46] - Divya Gandhi

In this episode, we speak with Michael Darga, a principal at Giffels Webster, and Todd Scott, the executive director of Detroit Greenways Coalition.

 

[00:58] - Em Hall

So Mike, Todd, we're so excited to have you here today for this critical conversation in transportation planning. Let's start by having you tell us a little bit about who you are, what you do, why we have you at the table today. Mike, you want to go first?

 

[01:10] - Michael Darga

Sure. Again, Mike Darga with Giffels Webster. I'm a partner there. Work in private development but also on the public side, so kind of my work has spanned both issues. Early in my career, I was the design engineer with Wayne County and actually got my start on the more vehicular planning side, moved into parks and non-motor from there, went then to the private side and really found passion for how to do these multi-use projects that serve more than just like the general public. They serve everybody and can really change how a community feels.

 

[01:39] - Em Hall

Yeah, and Todd?

 

[01:40] - Todd Scott

Yeah, I'm Todd Scott with the Detroit Greenways Coalition. I'm the executive director. We're a nonprofit that advocates for safer biking and walking, whether that's complete streets or trails. Been doing it since 2008.

 

[01:54] - Em Hall

Yeah, so you two represent different entry points into this work at this time. Private planning firm that's been involved since the first non-motorized master plan, and then a coalition that's really grown out of grassroots bicycle advocacy. How have your roles evolved as you've worked together on various projects, and where do you think those different perspectives create tension or opportunities and are complementary to each other?

 

[02:21] - Todd Scott

Well, our role has changed drastically in the city of Detroit because back in the day when we started, the city, you know, was going under a lot of financial strains and, you know, biking and walking infrastructure was not a priority. Mm-hmm. They were just trying to keep their heads above water. And so when funding became available to build these facilities, it was the nonprofits in Detroit that started building biking and walking trails and complete streets. And it caused problems because no one knew how to insure them or maintain them. Funders Wanted to see the bigger picture of how they all connected into a network. And so that's how the coalition came about, to answer those questions. And then over time, the city has, you know, gone through bankruptcy and developed a lot more capacity to handle this stuff and now has a complete streets department and has— greenways are part of the Parks and Rec program. So, you know, in some ways we worked ourselves out of that job. Yeah. But there's plenty of other work to do with advocacy.

 

[03:18] - Michael Darga

And similarly on that, I mean, it did start from the nonprofit side to really bring these things. The city, it wasn't the highest thing in their priority, but there was a nonprofit beside— before Todd's group, Midtown Detroit, Inc. and New Center Incorporated, which were 2 big neighborhood groups north of downtown in Detroit, were helping to rebuild and revitalize their neighborhoods. And there were a lot of just streets with excess capacity, but it was led by those groups who wanted to do 2-way, one-way to two-way conversions on streets to add bike lanes. And they found the funding, hired the engineers, and then worked, pressured the city to start doing these projects. So it was starting from that really grassroots neighborhood level to eventually where it did become an integrated part in the city network.

 

[04:03] - Em Hall

And then as the private sector, what's the role of the private sector like with you all at Gaples Webster now?

 

[04:08] - Michael Darga

I mean, we work like in between taking what the nonprofits or the community groups their vision, their wants, and how to work and bring that from a technical justification, from a planning standpoint, and make it real to the city. Mm-hmm. To show what can fit, to justify it. None of these projects were we trying to do of like non-motor at the expense of vehicular. We had roads that had plenty of capacity, but we had to show the community, show the city that these projects would work and not cause anybody grief. Because like with all politics, nobody wants to hear complaints. So these projects had to be incremental and grow and gain that community acceptance where they really changed some of these neighborhoods. I mean, they— the city was built for a city of 2 million people pre-freeway. Once the freeways came in, we had population decline. We had room to do things new, but we needed those community groups to start the impetus to bring in the professionals to then work with the city to start that change.

 

[05:02] - Em Hall

Yeah, so I know we could go back to like 2009 when the first non-motorized master plan came around, but I happen to know we did talk about this a little bit before, Todd, that we can go back to like much earlier than that. Like, like Detroit was actually a leader in cycling kind of culture and infrastructure before it became Motor City. Like, tell us a little bit about that history. We'll go, we'll go way back first.

 

[05:27] - Todd Scott

Sure. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, the first bicycle was ridden in Detroit in 1868. And, um, but it did really become a big fad, uh, not only in Detroit but across the U.S. until the safety bicycle came about, which was you know, bikes with equal-sized wheels and a chain. And that allowed more people who were more conservative, maybe women, children, to ride a bike and not have so much fear of going over the handlebars.

 

[05:51] - Em Hall

Sure.

 

[05:52] - Todd Scott

But yeah, it was said in 1898 that either Detroit or Brooklyn were the best cities for biking in the country. Incredible. I mean, and Detroit was, you know, a very flat city, had a lot of beautiful bike routes. And, you know, I think the bones of what made Detroit great for biking in the 1890s still exist today. And that's part of why we often look back to look forward and where we could be.

 

[06:16] - Em Hall

Interesting. So say more about that. I heard that the two of you are very instrumental in sort of, I don't know, reintroducing bike lanes or formally introducing bike lanes, you know, in much more recent history. So how did you build upon that legacy of those early cycling folks to get this non-motorized master plan going and start that implementation of bike lanes?

 

[06:40] - Todd Scott

Well, I think the— I mean, that was my first time working with Giffels-Webster, was with the non-motorized plan when, you know, they had completed the plan and unfortunately got stuck on a shelf. And, you know, speaking with MDOT, I was like, I asked MDOT, well, will you implement this, their portions of the non-motorized plan within the city of Detroit? And they said it hasn't been adopted by City Council. So, you know, I worked with Giffels and we brought it before the city's Green Task Force, which was presided over by the council president. And the first thing he said with DPW in the room was, why didn't I see this sooner? And you could see DPW slink down into their chair and not want to be there. And, well, what happened is that the council president then brought it before city council.

 

[07:25] - Em Hall

Okay.

 

[07:26] - Todd Scott

We were very fortunate in that we had Ron Scott, who was a civil rights advocate, with us because we partnered earlier on overriding the City of Detroit Police Department's mandatory bike registration.

 

[07:40] - Em Hall

Okay.

 

[07:40] - Todd Scott

Which is being done to find a reason to stop and frisk young Black teens in Detroit. And so with Ron, with Giffords-Webster, and myself, we got this through city council. And as it so happened, our current mayor had some legal issues, ended up not being the mayor, and the council president who who brought this before council and was enthusiastic became our mayor.

 

[08:02] - Em Hall

Oh, oh wow.

 

[08:03] - Todd Scott

And that sort of helped begin to kick off the establishment of more biking network within the city of Detroit.

 

[08:12] - Em Hall

Yeah. So what's that sort of fight been like to get that space for cyclists, Mike? I'm sure it wasn't just, great, let's— this is awesome, let's go do this. Like, what has that journey been like?

 

[08:24] - Michael Darga

It was always a journey of you know, who's— who was being harmed or who was perceived as being, you know, any change, any difference to the neighborhood, different people thought, you know, we were pulling parking, we were hurting traffic, the businesses would be impacted. Right. So there was a lot of— had to be community outreach and things showing it from a traffic perspective, from an engineering perspective, from a community acceptance standpoint, incremental changes that This wasn't us or them. It wasn't bikes versus cars. Right. We had plenty of room. We started in, luckily, some neighborhoods in Midtown and New Center that were starting to redevelop around Wayne State and expanding there. And it gave them a good home base, like, because it was in between downtown and university. The neighborhood was starting to come back. Got it. And there were streets that had capacity and easy first targets. And even though some of the businesses and the neighbors thought— because it was just change. I mean, taking one-way streets to two-ways and they had been one-way for decades. But it was getting it out there and taking a mile or 2 at a time. And once the first one got in and people saw that, you know, after a week or 2, people adapted really quick and development kept going and nobody's parking was harmed and you could still get to the businesses.

So it was that incremental change and building that trust that we weren't taking anything away from anybody, that this was for the local residents, the new people moving in. It didn't hurt businesses at all. And in the end, I think they actually had better access and a lot of the businesses even started buying in on them then.

 

[09:56] - Todd Scott

I would say also the big question was, who are you building these for?

 

[09:59] - Em Hall

Right.

 

[09:59] - Todd Scott

Because there was a perception that, you know, probably false perception that biking was a white person's activity.

 

[10:07] - Em Hall

Okay.

 

[10:07] - Todd Scott

And so are you building this for the existing residents or for attracting new residents to Detroit? And, you know, one thing we would bring up is that if you look at the fatality data for pedestrians and bikes, it exactly matches the demographics of the city. You know, 80-some percent of the fatalities are African American males. Okay.

 

[10:26] - Em Hall

Um,

 

[10:26] - Todd Scott

and, and, and a lot of, a lot of youth, a lot of 13-year-old boys are getting killed on the streets. And so this is— this isn't just about attracting, uh, white residents to the city. This is about making the streets safer for everyone here.

 

[10:38] - Em Hall

Right, right,

 

[10:39] - Divya Gandhi

right. That's really interesting perspective about Detroit, considering also like the long history of Detroit being defined as a motorized city, and, you know, a city that has been shaped by the auto industry. So bringing it— bringing us a little bit close to recent history here, it's known as the city that has been built around cars. So as you think about advancing a non-motorized plan, what does it take to, to make that shift, and how do you design something that, you know, not only works physically but also culturally resonates with the community? in a city like Detroit with such a strong automotive industry identity that it holds?

 

[11:21] - Todd Scott

Well, I would push back a little bit that we were designed for cars. We were more designed for streetcars because not everyone had cars when the majority of the city was built out, or maybe they only had one car and the rest of the family used streetcars to get around. I mean, we don't have a lot of cul-de-sacs and windy roads like the suburbs that were really built primarily for cars. So, we do have some good bones to for a city that could bike and walk more. But yeah, there definitely is a perception that we're the Motor City, what are you doing? And, you know, you explain to them that complete streets reduce traffic crashes for everyone, including people in cars. Right. And, you know, we have a very high rate of fatalities on our roads in Detroit. And, you know, we need to do more to get us down to zero deaths. And complete streets are one of those Right, 100%.

 

[12:12] - Divya Gandhi

Michael, do you want to?

 

[12:14] - Michael Darga

Well, and I always bring up that before we were the Motor City, and Todd started talking about the history of bicycling, you know, bicycling pre-1900, there was something— the early Good Roads Movement was not car-based. It was actually started by cyclists who wanted better surfaces than gravel or corduroy roads. So it's always kind of ironic, people think good roads and they think of Motor vehicles and us making our superhighways, but it started with the cyclists wanting better surfaces to cycle. So I kind of go back that we're really getting back to our roots. And that we're not trying to take anything away from anybody. This is not A or B. It's for the peds. It's for the cyclists. It's even making the road safer by calming it for everybody, for vehicular. So that's the main thing. It doesn't have to be a, you know, a win-lose. It can be something works for everybody. And we have a sizable part of the population who doesn't drive,

 

[13:06] - Em Hall

right,

 

[13:07] - Michael Darga

and needs transportation alternatives. So it is— it's not just recreational, or it's not, you know, Todd mentioned the, you know, who are we designing these lanes for? It's not just the recreational cyclists in spandex and whipping through the city. It's for people trying to get to work or kids getting to school. And how do we make these routes safer?

 

[13:25] - Em Hall

Yeah,

 

[13:25] - Todd Scott

yeah. You know, and about that history, trying to change the narrative that, you know, bikes were We're here earlier, we, we got approval for a state historic marker for the first bike ridden in Detroit.

 

[13:36] - Em Hall

Oh, cool.

 

[13:36] - Todd Scott

And on one side it talks about that bike ride and, and the role of bicycling in, um, everything, uh, from women's suffrage to the auto industry. But on the flip side, we talk about how bicyclists led the Good Roads Movement, and it was a bicyclist from Detroit that, that became our first state highway commissioner and founded MDOT.

 

[13:53] - Em Hall

Oh, wow.

 

[13:54] - Todd Scott

It was another bicyclist who, uh—

 

[13:55] - Em Hall

I didn't know this history. Yeah, that's incredible.

 

[13:58] - Todd Scott

Another bicyclist was the one who got the first concrete highway, mile of concrete highway in the world.

 

[14:03] - Divya Gandhi

Oh, this is excellent. Well, both of you have played clearly such a pivotal role in advancing non-motorized connections. I'd love to chat a little bit about the Gordie Howe Bridge, the Gordie Howe International Bridge, where a non-motorized pathway was initially a hard no, especially from the Canadian side, and crossings were limited to ferries. Can you walk us through what it actually took to get a seat at that table and shift that decision? And what did that experience teach you about advocating for non-motorized access at an international scale and ultimately, you know, shift that narrative?

 

[14:45] - Todd Scott

Sure. And so this project's been going on for a long time. In fact, we were just trying to figure out how long it's been going on. We don't— didn't really know. No one knows. Yeah, it definitely preceded me. And it started— You know, there was an environmental review like there is on all major federal projects, and we were fortunate to have had a person in Southwest Detroit where the bridge is located ask, will this new bridge have bike and ped access to it? Mm-hmm. And when I started the job, I was looking over those comments and MDOT reported, well, of course we support biking and walking on the bridge, but we're going to leave it up to Customs and Border Protection to determine whether that will be allowed or not. And for me, instantly, I knew that that meant no.

 

[15:26] - Em Hall

Yeah.

 

[15:27] - Todd Scott

We had some familiarity with that part of the federal government. And so we decided, well, let's try to make that a yes. And so we had a good relationship with then-Senator Carl Levin and his staff in D.C. We wrote a letter giving all the reasons why we needed bike and ped access on this bridge. Unfortunately, you know, you can't provide data because no one's crossing the bridge now.

 

[15:50] - Em Hall

Right.

 

[15:50] - Todd Scott

But we could talk about all the great trails on our side of the border and all the great trails on their side of the border. And in fact, we made a map It was the first map, I think, that we've ever made in this area that showed trails on both sides. We both— we joked that the Canadians normally gray our area out. That's where they put the key and everything, right, in the text. And we would do the same thing. So this was the first map where we didn't have any space for that. But, but we made that. And Senator Carl Levin took that letter, put it on his stationery, and sent it to the head of Homeland Security, Janet Napolitano. And she, she wrote back saying, well, of course Customs is going to work with you, Senator. and make this happen. And, you know, of course, I, I did a few happy dances around the room. But it also helped us on the other side of the border as well, because, you know, on the other side was represented in Parliament by a member of a minority party, and they, they considered his, uh, this proposal to get bikes on the bridge as a pet project.

When they saw the letter from Senator Carl Levin, they're like, oh, this is, this is serious if Carl Levin's on board. And so that really helped shift things too. And one of our next steps was we had a meeting with the Bridge where we brought in cycle tourism advocates and leaders from across the country, from Montreal to Missoula, Montana, and explained the importance of making this international connection and what it means not just on a regional scale but on an international scale. Mm-hmm. And, you know, the Canadians— I only recently learned that this was a hard no before all this effort. I think they were so nice to us they wouldn't give us a hard no. But it became a yes. And then, you You know, they realized too that they wanted to be LEED certified. What a great way to get some points to be LEED certified to allow bikes and peds on the bridge.

 

[17:34] - Em Hall

Absolutely.

 

[17:35] - Todd Scott

And not only that, they decided let's forego any tolls for bikes and peds. Let's really promote green transportation. Wow. And so that's how we got to where we are today.

 

[17:45] - Em Hall

That's incredible. So we'll have— got so many follow-up questions, but point of clarity, Mike, is your firm part of this project at all?

 

[17:54] - Michael Darga

Not on the design front. We are doing work on some of the construction side, but not during the design.

 

[17:58] - Em Hall

Yeah, so great. I just wanted to make sure I was clear on that. But, you know, thinking about somebody who's at a firm who's doing a lot of work across the region and beyond, probably, how is a project like this— what are the broader implications for something like that? Where somebody might be like, I'm never going to bike over to Canada, right? And so like, what do I care about this? But it seems like there's big implications here. Talk about that.

 

[18:19] - Michael Darga

It's really recognizing cycling and those options as transportation and just how to create a network throughout the region. I mean, Todd and I used to laugh that, you know, downtown Detroit would get a low walk score because it would show restaurants in Windsor because you couldn't walk to them. It was knocking down the walk score, yet that nobody kind of ignored that there was an international border and a half-mile-wide river there. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, this is going to, you know, really link the areas. For everything else going politically, I mean, Detroit and Windsor love each other and they're great partners. together on this more local regional area. So, besides the commercial, when I was in my teens in college, we always used to go to Windsor for Friday night dinner or other things. So, there's a long history between the two areas of going there. So, it will be— I can picture people biking across with their families for a, you know, Saturday or Sunday on the waterfront in Windsor, and it's a great time. And, you know, it's really hooking up two areas together and ending that artificial grayed-out box. area there.

 

[19:24] - Em Hall

Literally connecting the communities in a new way. Um, I would be excited to ride it. How long is it of a ride from one side to the other, approximately? Do you guys have any idea yet?

 

[19:34] - Todd Scott

I think it's about a mile and a half. Okay. The bridge itself is shorter than that.

 

[19:38] - Em Hall

Okay.

 

[19:38] - Todd Scott

Uh, it's a gentle grade. Yeah. It's not too bad.

 

[19:41] - Em Hall

Right. Yeah.

 

[19:41] - Todd Scott

Um, and, you know, I would add to that, it adds so many more cycling destinations that, you know, Detroit's cut off by the river and that border, and now it's going to be opened up, and we can now bike to those beautiful country roads in Windsor or their vineyards, you know, Ontario's wine country. We could do a big loop around Lake Erie. So, yeah, there's just tremendous opportunities. It's just super exciting. It's all going to be new to us.

 

[20:09] - Em Hall

Yes. We might reach out to the Canadian consulate and see if they'd like to sponsor this episode.

 

[20:16] - Divya Gandhi

Yeah.

 

[20:17] - Em Hall

Just kidding.

 

[20:18] - Todd Scott

No, I mean, I'm on the phone with Tourism Windsor-Essex-Pelee Island on a weekly basis. Yeah. And they are just as equally excited to have Canadians come over here and have Americans come over there and explore both sides.

 

[20:32] - Em Hall

No, it's an incredible— it's an incredible project. So were there ever any moments of doubt where you thought it wasn't going to happen? Or did you guys— once you got the senator on board, it was pretty— it's pretty good. Oh, yeah.

 

[20:45] - Todd Scott

I thought, you know, I was being an optimist. I didn't realize we were ever in a hard no.

 

[20:51] - Em Hall

You know, you said you found out afterwards.

 

[20:53] - Todd Scott

We found out afterwards because, you know, because the big buzz, I mean, there was— The buzz around this bridge was— and the number one buzz was, is this going to create more jobs? The number 2 question was biking on that bridge.

 

[21:03] - Em Hall

Yeah. Okay.

 

[21:04] - Todd Scott

And that overwhelmed the Windsor-Detroit Bridge Authority. You know, they did not expect that pathway to rise to the top.

 

[21:11] - Em Hall

Yeah.

 

[21:12] - Todd Scott

But it's going to be so iconic. You know, I think over time driving over the bridge will become, you know, regular. But biking over it will always be amazing.

 

[21:20] - Em Hall

That will always be a great experience. I can't wait to come back and try it.

 

[21:24] - Divya Gandhi

Totally, totally. Well, shifting this, shifting all the framing towards non-motorized transportation and getting these projects funded is extremely hard and challenging. And when you've made the case of these projects to decision makers and funders that this is transportation, it's not just recreation, even though recreation is very much a part of it, Talking about challenges and talking about navigating these conversations in a way that we're actually thinking about our audience of 5,000 transportation planners across the country and how do we replicate success stories like this. What kind of pushback or opposition have you run into and where does the resistance continue to show up? You know, how have you faced it and overcome it and been successful?

 

[22:21] - Michael Darga

Well, I mean, funding's an eternal issue. And I think, you know, working with the City of Detroit, it's been, you know, Transportation Alternatives Program grants, and under all the versions of the last 20 years on that as the name's changed. But it's come through economic development grants. It's come through just city DPW resurfacing projects or other efforts. So, I think we've reached any pot of money we could from, you know, nonprofit money. Community Foundation for Southeast Michigan sponsored early projects. So, we were finding money wherever we could on this. The kickback really comes from just every time there's a change in the public right-of-way, someone's trying to figure out how are they— what are they losing on that? Mm-hmm. Where the city's been instrumental lately is the community engagement has really been phenomenal as far as Bringing the community in, especially like the city's made a practice now of doing commercial corridors for streetscape and other enhancements. So you're bringing the residents in, you're bringing all the businesses, you're making change, but you're getting that buy-off on maybe taking out some parking on one side of the street, but adding a 2-way cycle track, but also adding it with pedestrian and facade improvements along the corridor.

So the overall corridor feels better. Mm-hmm. And you're helping an area You know, 2 years ago, the city did a corridor on East Warren on the east side of Detroit.

 

[23:40] - Em Hall

Sure.

 

[23:41] - Michael Darga

Where, you know, it was a commercial area, a little on the edges, a little rough, but had some great bones and could use some help and some love. And the city came out with new lighting, new paving for the road, trees, a cycle track, enhanced parking. So it was helping from a transportation standpoint on the bikes, but creating commercial benefits for the people who were there. but also attracting new businesses to the area. So that type of project can do benefits and help everybody at one time, but not come across as just a, oh, we're doing this for the cyclists.

 

[24:13] - Em Hall

Right. Yeah, because I could imagine there's a sense of like bike path is what, what a nice little thing to have while we can't fund like streetlights in our neighborhoods, right? And, and it sounds like making that business case is helpful, but you know, how, how else do you get people to sort of buy into that vision when there, there's seemingly so many other challenges in front of a municipality or even just somebody standing on their porch in a neighborhood, right?

 

[24:38] - Michael Darga

And some of these improvements have led to other things, like our first cycle track we tried was on East Jefferson on the far east side of Detroit. The city ended up striping about, what, 6, 7 miles of East Jefferson with cycle tracks. But those improvements then led DDOT, our local city bus system, to start adding protected shelters and other things coming out to the bike to the bus pickups for the people. So every one of these incremental improvements, and they've not all been totally winner projects, some of them fight, but they're steps in the right direction. We're learning what works, what might give us issues.

 

[25:13] - Em Hall

Yeah.

 

[25:14] - Michael Darga

And it's also getting the motoring public to get used to these projects in place because we're taking some very wide roads that were free-for-alls, maintaining traffic on them, but introducing elements that people haven't seen seen, and they're having to get used to them. So it's rolling out these things in stages and seeing what else can be incorporated in them.

 

[25:33] - Em Hall

Yeah, and from the advocacy side, Todd, how do you deal with those conversations with neighbors and all that kind of stuff?

 

[25:41] - Todd Scott

Well, I think first and foremost, you have to listen to the community because this isn't their priority, maybe. And this was true with the Joe Louis Greenway. Uh, you know, we had neighborhoods that didn't see a planner in, you know, 30, 40 years, and now you're coming here to build a bike lane or a bike trail?

 

[26:01] - Em Hall

Right.

 

[26:01] - Todd Scott

Who are you building this for, right? Right. Um, so it was super great that the city, you know, early on realized that this needs to be more than just a bike project and expand it to include those priorities from the neighborhoods and listen to them and hear, oh, blight is an issue and, and the lighting, and they need a place for teens to, to to hang out and physical fitness and getting to the jobs and parks and all that. And so, and affordable housing. So if you look beyond just the path and make it more than just a place for people to bike and walk, you can get the buy-in of the community and not just the buy-in, but the enthusiastic support.

 

[26:38] - Em Hall

Even better.

 

[26:39] - Todd Scott

Yeah, yeah. And credit to the city for starting in perhaps one of the most challenging parts of the city when building the Joe Louis Greenway. Once you get them on board, you know, the other parts were going to be a lot easier.

 

[26:51] - Em Hall

Yeah.

 

[26:52] - Todd Scott

Although I will say we do get complaints from, from cyclists who are very transportation-oriented and there's too many wiggles in the Joe Louis Greenway.

 

[27:00] - Em Hall

And,

 

[27:01] - Todd Scott

you know, you have to

 

[27:02] - Em Hall

slow down a little bit.

 

[27:03] - Todd Scott

It's a balance. It's a balance. Yeah.

 

[27:06] - Em Hall

Yeah. Yeah. That's incredible.

 

[27:08] - Divya Gandhi

Wow. Wow. I'm going to wear my consulting hat for a second here. And so, Michael, I know you framed the private sector's role as someone who should care about projects like these. What's the business case, and what do you wish more firms understood about the value of this work beyond just billable hours?

 

[27:29] - Michael Darga

I mean, it creates the community. Like, for our private development clients, these type of projects on the streets create the neighborhoods, create the communities that their projects are going to be more successful in. We're seeing, especially in large parts of the city, some of the The new people coming in don't drive as much. Mm-hmm. We have an existing population that a sizable portion don't have cars. So we're providing things for both new people and existing people for our private development projects that makes those projects more viable. It helps with parking requirements and transit and how do people find where they want to live and work together. And it makes those projects more valuable. These holistic projects on these corridors makes the private development projects more viable, more successful, and they start building off each other. One project turns into another, and on the private side, we can connect these things and provide more amenities for the residents, for the communities, and just see how things build up together.

 

[28:30] - Divya Gandhi

Thank you, Michael, for that perspective. And yes, thank you, Todd, as well. This is Tremendous. Thank you so much for hanging out with us today.

 

[28:41] - Michael Darga

Happy to.

 

[28:43] - Em Hall

Great. That's a wrap.

 

[28:47] - Divya Gandhi

Thanks for listening to another episode of Critical Conversations in Transportation Planning, an APA podcast series brought to you by the APA's Transportation Planning Division. To learn more about the division, please visit TPD's website at transportation.planning.org. And if you want to hear more great conversations with experts from across the planning landscape, subscribe to the APA Podcast so you'll never miss an episode. You can find the APA Podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Overcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also find our entire library of past episodes at planning.org/podcast.