Stephanie Rouse, AICP, and Jennifer Hiatt on Books, Podcasting, and Finding Your Own Voice

Booked on Planning

Abundance, Ezra Klein

Accidental Ecosystem, Peter Alagona

City on a Hill, Alex Krieger

Dark PR, Grant Ennis

Dwell Time

Empathic Design, Elgin Cleckley

Just Action, Richard Rothstein and Leah Rothstein

The Color of Law, Richard Rothstein

The Fight to Save the Town, Michelle Wilde Anderson

The High Cost of Free Parking, Donald Shoup

The Misunderstood History of Gentrification, Dennis Gale

Streetfight, Janette Sadik-Khan

 

[00:00] - Sponsor message: Looking to grow your career in planning without putting it on hold? The University of Cincinnati's Master of City Planning is 100 percent online, flexible, and built for working professionals. Explore the program at online.uc.edu.

[00:18] - Jennifer Hiatt: Everything has already been said, but it hasn't been said by you. You have a unique perspective and a unique planning voice. And for a long time, I never felt like I was a person who could advance the profession in any way. I was like, "Oh, I'm young, and I don't have a lot of experience" — but I have a perspective, and it's a unique one to me. So when you have something to say, you have a unique voice. Use it.

[00:41] - Stephanie Rouse, AICP: Being a smaller chapter, we're not able to do all of the educational offerings to prepare for the AICP exam. We were like, "We'll start a podcast." There's the recommended reading list that has something like 24 books on it, and no one ever has time to study all the material and then also read all of those books. So we were like, "We'll go through all of the books, we'll interview any of the authors that are available, and we'll give you the keynotes of what you need out of this."

[01:05] - Meghan Stromberg: When Stephanie Rouse and Jennifer Hiatt volunteered to read two dozen books to help put together a podcast aimed at planners studying for the AICP exam, they didn't plan to become the hosts and producers of a successful podcast about urban planning. But fast forward four seasons, and their show Booked on Planning, is doing exactly what they hoped, helping planners engage with big ideas through short, insightful conversations with authors shaping the field. From groundbreaking books like The High Cost of Free Parking to The Color of Law, they've tackled the classics and spotlighted books that could become the next ones. In this episode of People Behind the Plans, we hear the journey of these two planners from Lincoln, Nebraska, how reading shapes their practice, and why every planner's voice matters. As always, I'm your host, Megan Stromberg, Editor in Chief of the American Planning Association.

Stephanie, Jennifer, welcome to People Behind the Plans.

[02:03] - Stephanie Rouse, AICP: Thanks for having us.

[02:04] - Jennifer Hiatt: Yeah, thank you.

[02:05] - Meghan Stromberg: It's so good to finally meet you. I listen to your podcast. It's terrific.

[02:09] - Jennifer Hiatt: We appreciate that.

[02:12] - Meghan Stromberg: So how did you get started in podcasting? Where did this all come about?

[02:16] - Stephanie Rouse, AICP: So it actually was an idea of the APA Nebraska Chapter Board. We were looking at submission ideas for the Chapter President's Council grant. And being a smaller chapter, we're not able to do all of the educational offerings or to really support being able to prepare for the AICP exam. And podcasting at the time was somewhat new, and we were like, "Well, let's start a podcast." There's podcasts out there to help prep, and there's webinars, but there's the recommended reading list that has something like 24 books on it, and no one ever has time to study all the material and then also read all of those books. And some of them are really dense, heavy textbooks. So we were like, "We'll spend the first year of this podcast. We'll go through all of the books. We'll interview any of the authors that are available, and we'll give you the keynotes of what you need out of this." And so that was year one of the show. And Jennifer was actually the very first co-host, because back then I was less confident about reading 24 books in a year.

[03:12] - Jennifer Hiatt: Well, Stephanie sent out an email calling for help through the Nebraska APA email list. And we got seven people who were willing. And at the time, Stephanie and I did not know each other. It was just a random email that dropped in my inbox. And I thought, "Well, that sounds fun." And your offer was, "Can you do two books?" And then, yeah, just by coincidence, I happened to be the first co-host.

[03:39] - Stephanie Rouse, AICP: And so that first season, there was a different co-host for every, almost every episode. So Jennifer did two, I think there was maybe a couple of others that did two. But different rotating co-hosts interviewed all the authors. And then we thought, "Well, how do we keep this going? This is a fun project and a great educational offering."

[03:57] - Jennifer Hiatt: And Stephanie sent out another email asking for permanent co-host. And I responded and said, "This is a great idea. I really like the idea that it keeps going. If no one else reaches out, let me know."

[04:09] - Meghan Stromberg: So that's how Booked On Planning was born. Excellent. And how about the two of you outside of the podcast? How did you come to planning as a profession?

[04:18] - Jennifer Hiatt: I had no idea about planning. I'm from a very small town in the middle of nowhere, Nebraska. And I took a history of urban development class that introduced me to planning. So then I did the same master's program that Stephanie did and decided to be crazy and actually get a law degree as well to help support my planning. I like to say I'm a planner with a law degree, not a lawyer with a planning degree. Then I got into redevelopment, and the rest is history.

[04:44] - Stephanie Rouse, AICP: For me, I'm a lover of old buildings, so trying to pick a major to go into I thought the only field to really support that was architecture. Did four years of that, decided that I really liked sleep. [laughs] You have to take an intro to planning as your last semester. And that really sealed it for me. I knew that planning is the way I wanted to go. I wanted to look at cities in a larger lens versus building by building, and did my master's in community and regional planning.

[05:14] - Meghan Stromberg: So you started by reading these 24 books that are required reading for the AICP exam. That was your first year. And then the second year, you branched out, right? And again, read something like 24 books. Did you have 24 episodes the second year?

[05:32] - Stephanie Rouse, AICP: Not in year two. So we eased into the 24 books in a year. So we started out, it was going to be one book every month as the first episode. Our second episode was what we called an article episode. So we read a lot of PAS Memos and articles and other relevant material out there that went with the first. It was the same topic as the book episode. And then somehow we just started slipping in extra books here and there.

[05:57] - Jennifer Hiatt: It wasn't somehow. It wasn't somehow. Stephanie had... I think you had a preservation book, or was it Streetfight?

[06:05] - Stephanie Rouse, AICP: Oh, it might have been Dwell Time.

[06:06] - Jennifer Hiatt: It was Dwell Time. She's like, "Can we just slip this one in?" I'm like, "Well, I guess we can." And then we became a two-book-a-month podcast.

[06:15] - Meghan Stromberg: That's a lot of reading. When do you find time to read all these books?

[06:19] - Stephanie Rouse, AICP: It is a lot. The way I make sure to get through it is I find the day we need to send out our questions, and then I backdate the number of pages and try and read 10 pages every morning before going to work, and that keeps me on track. But I think we also do a good job of trying to align the book so we know if there's a 400-page book, the other book is not going to be that long. It'll be one of the 150- or 200-page books.

[06:40] - Jennifer Hiatt: I've always been a pretty big reader, so part of my morning routine is setting aside about 30 minutes to read. And it used to be fun fiction, and now it's almost all planning books, but I think it's worth it.

[06:53] - Meghan Stromberg: I was going to say, do you have time to read other kinds of books, or is it all planning all the time?

[06:59] - Stephanie Rouse, AICP: I tend to slip at least one book that's for fun in each month.

[07:02] - Jennifer Hiatt: I'm a part of a book club, so I get my one, we call it "trashy novel book club." So I get one trashy novel.

[07:10] - Meghan Stromberg: All your reading is required reading.

[07:12] - Jennifer Hiatt: [laughs] I guess I am. That's a way to put it.

[07:15] - Meghan Stromberg: Do you have a favorite book that you read or an author that you talked to?

[07:19] - Jennifer Hiatt: My favorite book is The Fight to Save the Town. I, again, am from a small rural community that is not necessarily thriving. So reading Michelle Wilder's book was very fascinating and a great insight into what we could maybe do to start turning those communities around.

[07:37] - Stephanie Rouse, AICP: My favorite was City on a Hill by Alex Krieger. I loved it so much. I actually made it recommended reading for my online class that I teach, Community in the Future. I think it gives readers a good understanding of where we came from as a field and how planning evolved, and gets in a little bit of where are we going next.

[07:55] - Meghan Stromberg: Great. Maybe with our show notes, we'll have a list of recommended reading or shows that people should listen to.

[08:01] - Stephanie Rouse, AICP: So that's the last question of every episode is our author-recommended reading list. And so we've been building out this very long list on our website, a library of recommended readings just from the authors.

[08:12] - Jennifer Hiatt: We kind of stole it from Ezra Klein, but that's okay.

[08:15] - Meghan Stromberg: That's okay. [laughs] I saw that you have an episode on The High Cost of Free Parking by Don Shoup, and that was written, what, 20 years ago, and Don passed away recently. We think about Don Shoup and his book, The High Cost of Free Parking. He's the planning legend, right? Tell me a little bit about that episode and spending time with him.

[08:38] - Stephanie Rouse, AICP: You talk about he's a legend in the field. And so we were reaching out to all the authors, trying to get them all on. We were able to get everyone but one, actually, who was still around. And so it was talking to a legend and a little bit of — blanking on the word.

[08:54] - Jennifer Hiatt: A little bit star-struck?

[08:55] - Stephanie Rouse, AICP: Star-struck, yeah. That'd be a good word for it. But he's really down to earth, really easy to talk to, has just really great insights and is just the go-to for parking reform in cities. And it's taken so long, but everything he wrote in that book so long ago is still relevant today and is still very applicable.

[09:14] - Jennifer Hiatt: And if you get a chance, you should listen to the episode because he's actually really funny, too.

[09:18] - Meghan Stromberg: Well, the book is funny. I was talking with the original editor of the book, Jim Hecimovich, because it was an APA Planner's Press Book, published by APA originally. And he said that it was kind of a hard sell, like 400 pages about parking, but it's so readable. It's so funny. And the principles of it just ring true. And as you mentioned, Stephanie, it's coming to pass, right? Zoning reform is coming to pass. Eliminating parking minimums, paying for parking. I'm sure that was wonderful for him to see.

[09:51] - Jennifer Hiatt: Lincoln is actually doing a parking study right now, Lincoln, Nebraska, which is where Stephanie and I both work in the Urban Development Department there. So we're working on a downtown study for parking. It's so funny how almost every conversation comes around to one of Donald Shoup's books. We're like, "Oh, we'll do this," or, "Oh, yeah." And yet we still have to hear the general population complain about parking. Somebody needs to just buy 100,000 copies and then hand them out to every person in our city.

[10:21] - Meghan Stromberg: Or just send them the podcast.

[10:23] - Jennifer Hiatt: Or just send them the podcast episode. [laughs]

[10:25] - Meghan Stromberg: In the course of your reading, have you come across anything that you think might be a new classic?

[10:30] - Stephanie Rouse, AICP: So I feel like Color of Law is actually one of those books that's becoming one of those staples in the planning profession. It's one of our higher downloaded episodes, and I think it really highlights the foundations of what the issues are and how we need to build from them. And they even did a follow-up book, Just Action, that I think is a great companion. So they set the stage in Color of Law, of here's how we got to this point, all of the negative impacts that have resulted, and then here's how we fix it, and give cities a ton of ideas on how to fix some of these really ingrained issues in our community. So that one, I think, is definitely one that will probably stand the test of time.

[11:09] - Jennifer Hiatt: I have one that I would like to, and it's The Misunderstood History of Gentrification by Dennis Gale. And I think that was one of my more favorite episodes for our podcast. It didn't hurt that I was recording it in the Denver airport, but it's a rethinking of gentrification. I think that maybe planners should take a good look at the origins, because Dennis' argument is that it actually started occurring about 20 years before we generally think about it. Maybe it will become a classic, too.

[11:39] - Meghan Stromberg: Tell me more about that.

[11:41] - Jennifer Hiatt: So Dennis looks at —

[11:43] - Stephanie Rouse, AICP: "Embryonic gentrification" is the term that he coins.

[11:47] - Jennifer Hiatt: Yes. And he looked at Georgetown and Beacon Hill. It was the turnaround of those neighborhoods that actually he coins embryonic gentrification and was the first form of gentrification. And it wasn't what you think of where people come in, knock down buildings and build high rises. It was actually the historic restoration of those neighborhoods that ended up kicking people who are living there out of homes as people came in, restored the historic homes, made the neighborhoods what they are.

[12:19] - Meghan Stromberg: That's been the theme of gentrification, right? People move in and do something that they and others see as improving the neighborhood, and then it attracts others, artists. They call themselves pioneers, right? And there's this promotion of improvement and really a loss of what was there before and whether it needed improvement. Maybe it's a place where affordable housing is happening naturally, and that brings a benefit to the city, perhaps a much more important benefit than what the neighborhood becomes.

[12:52] - Jennifer Hiatt: In Georgetown, he discusses these homes that were built along the alleys, and they were considered just very degraded areas. And then people came in, well, rich white Congresspeople came in, and renovated them. And now they are highly sought-after areas where even five years before this period that he's discussing people were talking about knocking them down.

[13:18] - Sponsor message: Are you ready to take the next step in your planning career but need a program that fits your schedule? The University of Cincinnati's Master of City Planning is fully online and self-paced through the College of Design, Architecture, Art, and Planning. You'll learn from industry experts and get support every step of the way, from enrollment through graduation. Full-time or part-time, it's designed to work around your life. Explore your next move at online.uc.edu.

[13:49] - Meghan Stromberg: What about any books or interviewees that were surprising, that you liked and you didn't expect to, or were funny and you didn't know they would be?

[13:59] - Stephanie Rouse, AICP: It was surprisingly an interesting topic, Accidental Ecosystem, all about urban ecosystems and the way they've changed and the early parks movement and how that impacted wildlife in cities, and then how wildlife is coming back into cities and how that's impacting the way we live. It went into a lot more detail than I was expecting.

[14:20] - Jennifer Hiatt: We had an author reach out to us, Grant Ennis, and he sent us his book Dark PR after he listened to our Bicycle City episode, I think. When Stephanie and I got the request, we were like, "Well, why don't we try something different?" And then I was incredibly shocked at how it really worked its way back into planning and the idea of publication and advertising and how it influences everything. So that was a good one.

[14:45] - Meghan Stromberg: A question about when you go back to your day jobs, do you find yourself thinking about the books and thinking, "Oh, actually, this is something I could apply?"

[14:54] - Stephanie Rouse, AICP: All the time. And we've actually done it a few times already. Elgin Cleckley, his book —

[15:01] - Jennifer Hiatt: Empathic Design.

[15:02] - Stephanie Rouse, AICP: Empathic Design, yes, has a ton of really amazing ideas for public engagements. We were doing one of our neighborhoods, University Place, a small area plan, and doing a bunch of engagement. I told the team, I was like, "We really should do this really cool tile idea." So when we have our little makers markets and go into the schools, we can bring little white tiles and have them draw on what they want to see in their neighborhood or what they love in their neighborhood. And it's a very arts-focused community. And so the local artist group, they were going to put together a big mural of all the tiles at the end of it and display it in the neighborhood.

[15:35] - Meghan Stromberg: Oh, how cool. Has that happened?

[15:37] - Jennifer Hiatt: We just finished the sub-area plan, so we're actually getting started on the redevelopment plan that will provide the financing to help put that together. So we have two boxes of these tiles that are very preciously protected in one of our planners' offices right now.

[15:53] - Meghan Stromberg: Did you reconnect with the author and tell them that this was happening?

[15:57] - Stephanie Rouse, AICP: We haven't. That's actually a good idea. We really should. [laughs]

[16:01] - Meghan Stromberg: So you're planners and an attorney, but a planner first. But now you're also podcasters. What have you learned about becoming a podcaster? Was it easy?

[16:12] - Jennifer Hiatt: No.

[16:13] - Stephanie Rouse, AICP: No. Learned a ton about podcasting because I have never done editing or worked with recording material or anything like that. So I was learning how to edit audio and what we should be telling our guests as far as using headphones or going into a quieter space to make it a little easier to do so, and then just being able to promote the podcast and get it out there and make sure people are aware of it. It's been a very long journey.

[16:41] - Jennifer Hiatt: Yeah. And you think of it like, "Oh, we read a book and then we talk to an author," but the amount of coordination that has to go on in the background. We have developed some really great partnerships with publishers, too. So we have to coordinate with publishers to see what books are coming up, how we can work those through. But we have plenty of people now who are reaching out. So then it's how do we filter out books and what actually sticks with our theme? And do we have a theme? And are we going to only be planning or are we going to include Dark PR? So we had to really work through all of that backside logistics, too.

[17:17] - Meghan Stromberg: Absolutely understand that. You have to develop this content strategy about who you are, what you want to do, who you want to reach. Actually, that's something I'm curious about. I know it's hard to get analytics on podcasts because your podcast appears in all different platforms. The analytics are hard to generate and find. But do you have a sense of who it's going out to? Is it... Obviously, probably people in the Nebraska chapter are pretty familiar with it. I've listened to it. It's terrific. Who else is listening to it, or who do you want to reach?

[17:47] - Stephanie Rouse, AICP: I think our initial audience was APA members or planners, adjacent fields, AIA members, or ASLA, or just anyone interested in cities and city design. And it is incredibly hard to figure out who actually is listening. All you see is where they were listening or how many downloads you got. But it's been amazing. And it is a podcast in the Nebraska chapter, but our listeners are only maybe like 1 percent from Nebraska. It's a podcast that reaches all across the nation and to other countries, too. There's a surprising number of listeners from Canada, and I think we had in almost every continent, at least a few downloads. So it's been really fun seeing the reach that we've been able to accomplish.

[18:30] - Jennifer Hiatt: The little population from Germany that listens to us always warms my heart when we see that download.

[18:35] - Meghan Stromberg: The little population?

[18:37] - Jennifer Hiatt: Yeah. Well, it's like 2 percent?

[18:40] - Stephanie Rouse, AICP: It's very small.

[18:42] - Jennifer Hiatt: It's very small. Yeah. So it's like, who are you guys?

[18:44] - Stephanie Rouse, AICP: And how did you find us?

[18:45] - Jennifer Hiatt: Yeah, exactly.

[18:47] - Meghan Stromberg: So podcasts are all the rage right now. Yours has been around for some time. 2018? Is that when you started?

[18:53] - Stephanie Rouse, AICP: We're in our fourth season.

[18:55] - Jennifer Hiatt: It would have been 2021, I think. 2022. I was like, "Where was I employed at the time?" 2022.

[19:03] - Meghan Stromberg: So what if a planner came to you and wanted to start their own podcast? What advice would you give them?

[19:09] - Jennifer Hiatt: I would say that maybe everything has already been said, but it hasn't been said by you. You have a unique perspective and a unique planning voice. And for a long time, I never felt like I was a person who could advance the profession in any way. I was like, "Oh, I'm young, and I don't have a lot of experience" — but I have a perspective, and it's a unique one to me. So when you have something to say, you have a unique voice. Use it.

[19:33] - Stephanie Rouse, AICP: I would say you don't have to go big out of the gate. Ours has definitely evolved over the four years, and I think we've hit our flow and what works really well for this podcast. But we started small. I mean, we've acquired different equipment through the years, headphones and microphones, but we still do the free editing software, and we use our Zoom accounts that we have, and so we try and keep it pretty cost-effective. I will say it is a big time commitment. I think we put maybe 10 hours into every episode. So reading a book takes quite a bit of time, so that's maybe half of it. But editing it, preparing it, getting the guests on the show, and making sure to push it out in social media and sending newsletters and everything like that. So it is a time commitment, but it's definitely worth it, I think.

[20:23] - Jennifer Hiatt: Yeah. And don't be too proud to use your resources. So we have reached out to the American Planning Association. You all have an excellent team who have given us a lot of advice on software, on what microphones to use. Reach out to us. We'll help you. But don't be too proud to ask questions. We sounded kind of stupid when we first started, but now we've got a pretty smooth podcast, so don't worry about that.

[20:47] - Stephanie Rouse, AICP: I do have to say, Jonathan Miller has the UNofficial AICP Podcast, and he's who I reached out to first to say, "How do you do it? What can I learn from you?" And he tipped me on to some of the software and the way to translate audio files and helped set the stage of getting started. So, yeah, he was instrumental in just figuring out what goes into a podcast.

[21:11] - Meghan Stromberg: A lot goes into a podcast. There's a lot of behind-the-scenes work and some unglamorous stuff. But to me, really getting to talk to people who are passionate about whatever it is they do is the best part. Meeting these people and engaging with them. And like you said, Jennifer, everyone has their own unique perspective. Planners sometimes are behind the scenes. A lot of their work can be quietly done and then approved by a city council or something like that. But planners have a lot to say, and I appreciate you encouraging people to speak out about their own perspective. So what podcasts do you listen to?

[21:50] - Stephanie Rouse, AICP: We were just talking before this about how as a podcaster, it's really hard to make time to listen to other podcasts because you're spending so much time relistening to the episodes that you're editing and getting them out onto the platforms. But I do have some in the queue that I love to get back to. And I think spring hits and I get outside gardening, it'll be good to catch up on some of them. But I've been a long-time listener of 99% Invisible. I think they were a spur for wanting to do a podcast, too, and have a similar history, too. They started as an AIA podcast and grew into this amazing, well-produced show. And so maybe someday we become 99% Invisible.

[22:29] - Jennifer Hiatt: We're working on it.

[22:31] - Stephanie Rouse, AICP: Yeah. [laughs] And then I do some fun ones. Criminal is a fun one to listen to, just the different stories. And of course, APA's podcast.

[22:37] - Meghan Stromberg: Well, thank you.

[22:38] - Jennifer Hiatt: APA is always one of the first ones in my queue, too. And then I was thinking about what podcasts do I listen to? And I realized I listen to a lot of book-based podcasts. Maybe I need to get better hobbies. But I —

[22:49] - Stephanie Rouse, AICP: You're such a nerd. [laughs].

[22:51] - Jennifer Hiatt: [laughs] I am. I do enjoy listening to the Ezra Klein show, and we did steal our last question from them. And I really enjoy You're Wrong About, where they read a pop culture book and then talk about why the science behind that pop culture book might not be as strong as you think.

[23:07] - Meghan Stromberg: You mentioned Ezra Klein. Have you had him on your show? He has a new book.

[23:11] - Jennifer Hiatt: We've tried. We'd love to host Abundance on our podcast. Stephanie actually got to meet him last year, sort of.

[23:17] - Stephanie Rouse, AICP: Yeah, he was the guest at the APA fall fly-in. He was an amazing speaker. I stood in the room with him. I didn't actually talk to him. [laughs]

[23:28] - Jennifer Hiatt: So, you know, Ezra, if you're listening. Reach out. [laughs]

[23:32] - Meghan Stromberg: So where can people find Booked On Planning? How do they listen?

[23:36] - Stephanie Rouse, AICP: So our website is BookedOnPlanning.com, and it links all the major podcast platforms. So we're on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and then I think a couple of others, too.

[23:50] - Jennifer Hiatt: We are active on social media on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn, all at Booked On Planning.

[23:56] - Meghan Stromberg: Great. Well, Jennifer, Stephanie, it was such a pleasure having you on People Behind the Plans.

[24:02] - Stephanie Rouse, AICP: Thanks for having us.

[24:03] - Jennifer Hiatt: Yes, thank you so much.

[24:04] - Meghan Stromberg: Thanks for listening to another episode of People Behind the Plans, an APA podcast. If you want to hear more great conversations with experts from across the planning landscape, subscribe to APA podcasts so you'll never miss an episode. And if you like what you're hearing, rate us on iTunes. You can find People Behind the Plans on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Overcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also find our entire library of episodes at planning.org/podcast.

[24:38] - Sponsor message: For over a century, UC's College of Design, Architecture, Art, and Planning has produced leaders in planning. Now, that same expertise is available in a 100 percent online Master of City Planning, built for working professionals. Explore the program at online.uc.edu.